@thefinalstrawradio the right to bodily autonomy, including the right to... use your body to violate others
@it @thefinalstrawradio this is a sketchy ass response, what the hell do you mean by this
@passthatsouphun_ @thefinalstrawradio I don't have any time for the dumb ecological argument either. But I resent a pronatalism that ignores the fact that by breeding you are reproducing the oppression of children and creating a person without their consent.
@it @passthatsouphun_ uh huh. How does one get consent before creating a fetus? That is absurd
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@it @passthatsouphun_ @thefinalstrawradio yes, exactly. If it’s impossible to get consent first then it follows that you shouldn’t do it
@eyes @thefinalstrawradio @passthatsouphun_ @destroy really thoughtful response imo and I agree. being glib led me to overfocus on the consent thing. to be more clear, the reason I am suspicious of breeders and their propagandists is the (evil) social relationship of parent to child, which they inevitably seem to reproduce.
@eyes @destroy @passthatsouphun_ @thefinalstrawradio like, how can you be a devotee of the liberation of the human race and be so unserious about creating a carceral relationship?
@it @thefinalstrawradio @passthatsouphun_ @destroy i feel like it is usually parents who try hard to defend doing that and it always feels kinda gross when i click on their profile and it says "father of 3 kids (:" or "proud parent" or something.
there's cases where some people think its ethical to do something to someone even if they can't get consent for it at the moment. like if someone is unconscious and they give them medical treatment without consent, because they can't get consent while they're unconscious. the idea is that the person would probably retroactively give consent after they wake up because it would have saved their life. i dont think i really agree with/accept medical ethics stuff that im referencing but im curious how it would affect the argument.
imo current conceptions of 'consent' are really flawed so any argument that relies on them is kind of flawed as well i think. also i dont think someone choosing to give birth is an action that makes a new consciousness exist when there wouldn't be one otherwise or anything like that. so i dont think there's any reason why it would require consent. but this is just because of how i see things and i understand that other ppl could see it differently. and if someone *does* believe it brings a new consciousness into existence and still does it without consent they might still be acting unethically because from their perspective it could be unethical if their morality was applied consistently i think. because someone doing something that their own moral view would see as wrong if applied consistently is wrong even if i dont agree with their moral views.
personally i think anti-parenthood is a much stronger argument as to why it's unethical to have children than the whole consent thing. parents are direct oppressors of children so when someone tries to have children they are trying to put themselves into the position of an oppressor when they weren't (at least as directly) before. and i think parenthood is kind of fundamentally tied into reproducing a lot of bad things. so when someone decides to become a parent they are intentionally putting themselves into a position where they could expect themselves to end up reproducing those bad things. i think its probably impossible to remain legally a parent without doing a lot of really unethical things to the people you have power over and i think a lot of people who decide to be a parent are probably intending to remain legally a parent, even though it means doing those unethical things. and i think the reason a lot of people decide to be parents basically come down to having power over another person. and doing anything for that reason or with that intention is unethical.