@eris @FinalOverdrive when you speak of patriarchy as a component of white supremacy it erases the struggles of thousands of years in places like China. Subjugation of people under men has been the norm in many societies around the world long before white supremacy was invented.

@destroy @eris It does not erase it all, it simply focuses where our efforts should be directed in the here and now. It's not all women against all men. I suppose now you would call bell hooks, Angela Davis, and the Combahee statement as not feminism as well?

@FinalOverdrive @eris bell hooks considers black men her oppressors I don’t think you understand her writings

@destroy @eris By the same token, she did not exclude men from feminism. And her view of black men wasn't a simple one of oppressor or not.

@eris @FinalOverdrive She never subordinated the struggle of women to the struggle of men. None of the people you mentioned did. And similarly, I won’t subordinate the liberation of trans women to be secondary to anyone else’s liberation.

@destroy @eris It's not a question of subordination of ones own cause, it's about not subordibating anyone else's struggle for liberation to ours. The patriarchy is not some root oppression. There is no root oppression. And again, these thinkers never thought in terms of all men or all women. It means the forces of liberation must cooperate with one another as equals. That means give and take.

@eris @FinalOverdrive Yeah I’ll work with other people the moment they start treating trans women as equals. Haven’t seen it yet though

@destroy @eris So basically you pick up your toys, go home, and pout because things aren't perfect? You'll just subordinate everyone's struggles to ours and ours alone? As if all trans women, never mind all women period, were in the same boat?

All I see is a duplication of the errors of second wave thinking, minus the transphobia.

@eris @FinalOverdrive No one will advocate for trans women but ourselves. When you work in a struggle that doesn’t consider trans women as an equal priority you’re not struggling towards our liberation you’re simply becoming a footstool for someone else’s empowerment.

@destroy @eris So it's subordinate or be subordinated, is that it?

@FinalOverdrive @eris until people start actually working with trans women yeah

@destroy @eris So feminism for women, albeit this time trans and cis alike. And this sisterhood is uncomplicated by questions of class, racialization, sexuality, imperialism, or even levels of education is that it? And I suppose we must be anti-porn on top of that? Yeah no thanks.

You're committing the same errors as the second wave. There's a reason why it died and gave way to the third wave. It is a museum piece, antiquated and obsolete. Leave it in the past where it belongs. It has be superseded by black feminism, transfeminism, socialist feminism, anarcha-feminism, queer feminism, and yes sex positive feminism. They have conserved what was valuable and discarded what wasn't. The struggle will be intersectional and interwoven with all other struggles or it will not be at all. Swept into the dustbin of history with the pet rock and mood rings. What you're trying to build died of it's own inherent failures: among which was transphobia and whorephobia. The only people who advance this kind of feminism with gusto is the trans exclusive radical feminist. You are thus the biggest pick me of all.

@FinalOverdrive @eris You’re assuming a lot of things I never said just because I don’t believe that trans women shouldn’t work in groups that aren’t interested in their liberation. All I’m asking is that other people extend intersectionality to us for once.

@destroy @eris Again, you cannot speak of a unified bloc called "trans women" anymore than you can speak of a unified, shared cis woman hood with common experiences.

The only thing that unites us, trans and cis, is oppression under patriarchy. That's all. And we are not even identically or equally oppressed by patriarchy. That is a very thin reed to build a sisterhood with.

I do apologize for making the presumptions I did in the last reply. It was uncalled for.

Your complaints about how trans women are treated? They are just. But you cannot solve them by prioritizing our struggle over every other struggle, any more than
our 70's cis predescessors could for theirs. We don't become stronger by separating from the larger fight. We become an ineffective middle class girls club forever swapping programming blåhaj memes and programming jokes.

@FinalOverdrive @eris if that shared struggle is a thin reed that you can’t build a useful movement with then what the hell is supposed to be the binding agent between oppressed and oppressor sharing struggle like you want to build?

@destroy @eris Oppressed and oppressor is a simple binary that simply does not reflect the world as it is out there. bell hooks herself stated that, being both black and a woman, her relationship to black men isn't and can never be a simple matter of oppressed and oppressor. The comrade and oppressor is embodied in the same figure against a larger more oppressive interwoven system that faces them both in distinct ways. Therefore it is not a question of struggling against black men as it struggling with them. Is there conflict? Sure. But the relationship is not that simple.

The only case where it might be that simple is solely within whiteness. And even there I suspect things are not that simple.

Likewise, a white trans woman is fully capable of oppressing a black trans woman. Poor trans women share nothing in common with a well off trans woman. The same intermingling of oppressor and oppressed occurs within the fortress you seek to build. The only difference is, cut off from the larger fight, it is impotent to achieve even its own goals.