meta, Ro + Ra'il, misogyny, discourse about entitlement over womens bodies
Queer men are not exempt.
With Ro, and with Packetcat, you have two chasers who sexualize women's bodies. Ro's sexual fantasy for cross dressers coincides with his emotional attachment to discourse about trans women, and Packetcat doesn't even hide his comments on his main account where he asks various femmes if he can perform sex acts on them. The difference is Ro hides his fetish, and Packetcat does not hide it.
With Ra'il the entitlement may not be sexual, but the emotional entitlement is there all the same. He feels entitled to my photos, entitled to my accounts and to be able to witness the private moments with my family and friends that I choose not to disclose to him, entitled to comment on whether or not I actively post art for him to see. He feels entitled to my right to decide my name and feels entitled to decide that names reserved for those who have known me since pre-transition are for him to use too.
To Ra'il my body is his to pick apart and critique because as a woman I am not seen as having the right to my bodily or digital autonomy. Keep in mind, I don't go looking for the same — I have not stalked his personal accounts, I'm not picking apart his art or trying to find his friends and family, I'm not looking to post photos of him or to discuss moments which don't belong to me, because as much as I dislike him, those are his and I respect his autonomy and digital privacy outside of these accounts where I am made to be public discourse by him but I am not allowed to respond or criticize in turn.
I've long since stopped giving a shit what Ra'il says, or Ro or Packetcat for that matter. I am not interested in waging a 10 year war when we're all going to exist on this space regardless and I'm not interested in this back and forth online abuse for the sake of figuring out who's "right." We've all said our piece and our criticisms, it's time to move the fuck on.
You don't have to respect me as a person, I certainly don't respect yall. But that entitlement over women's bodies.... That's something deeply fucked up. If it isn't me, it'll be someone else. That is for you to unpack, but being the men that you are, as usual you offload that emotional labor onto women. It's fucking pathetic.
#fediblockmeta
meta, Ro + Ra'il, misogyny, discourse about entitlement over womens bodies
@eris Ra'il isn't a man to my limited knowledge. I apologize if I am wrong. I don't know and haven't inquired, but I think you should not cast the man net so wide here. As for Ro, he's not commenting on trans women, white or not. They're both commenting on you for dragging this whole vendetta for a year...which, need I remind you, started over an off color joke about how some white supremacists see Italians and Africans as basically the same, only you didn't do the best job conveying that part. You just baldly stated it without qualifiers to indicate sarcasm.
What you're discussing here is very real situation. There is legitimate grievance, a lot, about how trans women of any color are treated by trans men. This deserves to be discussed and taken seriously.
Your opposition's core issue, however, is a growing concern that white transfeminists are ironically repeating the same error commited by white cis radfems made that was among many things that proved to be their undoing: an unwillingness to tread carefully and mindfully at the intersection of race and sex. One cannot simply array trans men on one side and trans women on the other, anymore than the second wave radfems could do with cis men and cis women. It simply isn't merely a matter of misogyny, transmisogyny pure and simple.
I have largely stayed out of this conflict, though I have not been neutral and never claim to be. I want to be on your side here. I really do. But given the already hostile climate black fedi users from multiple countries of origin face in the fediverse, I cannot abide by any approach to a problem that makes this situation worse.
Especially a conflict that literally started because you didn't tell a joke well enough. Does this really seem like something to go on crusade for?
I know I'm kicking a damn hornets nest. But nothing breaks my heart more than when I see a big historical mistake being repeated.
Reviving second wave radical feminism wholesale, minus the transphobia that plagued it isn't sufficient. There was a whole lot else wrong with it besides. Otherwise whenceforth the third wave?
Think it over.
meta, Ro + Ra'il, misogyny, discourse about entitlement over womens bodies
@FinalOverdrive @eris if you don’t believe men are the oppressing class over women you simply aren’t a feminist at all. Patriarchy is a real system.
meta, Ro + Ra'il, misogyny, discourse about entitlement over womens bodies
meta, Ro + Ra'il, misogyny, discourse about entitlement over womens bodies
@eris @FinalOverdrive when you speak of patriarchy as a component of white supremacy it erases the struggles of thousands of years in places like China. Subjugation of people under men has been the norm in many societies around the world long before white supremacy was invented.
meta, Ro + Ra'il, misogyny, discourse about entitlement over womens bodies
meta, Ro + Ra'il, misogyny, discourse about entitlement over womens bodies
@FinalOverdrive @eris bell hooks considers black men her oppressors I don’t think you understand her writings
meta, Ro + Ra'il, misogyny, discourse about entitlement over womens bodies
@eris @FinalOverdrive She never subordinated the struggle of women to the struggle of men. None of the people you mentioned did. And similarly, I won’t subordinate the liberation of trans women to be secondary to anyone else’s liberation.
meta, Ro + Ra'il, misogyny, discourse about entitlement over womens bodies
@destroy @eris It's not a question of subordination of ones own cause, it's about not subordibating anyone else's struggle for liberation to ours. The patriarchy is not some root oppression. There is no root oppression. And again, these thinkers never thought in terms of all men or all women. It means the forces of liberation must cooperate with one another as equals. That means give and take.
meta, Ro + Ra'il, misogyny, discourse about entitlement over womens bodies
@eris @FinalOverdrive Yeah I’ll work with other people the moment they start treating trans women as equals. Haven’t seen it yet though
meta, Ro + Ra'il, misogyny, discourse about entitlement over womens bodies
@destroy @eris So basically you pick up your toys, go home, and pout because things aren't perfect? You'll just subordinate everyone's struggles to ours and ours alone? As if all trans women, never mind all women period, were in the same boat?
All I see is a duplication of the errors of second wave thinking, minus the transphobia.
meta, Ro + Ra'il, misogyny, discourse about entitlement over womens bodies
@eris @FinalOverdrive No one will advocate for trans women but ourselves. When you work in a struggle that doesn’t consider trans women as an equal priority you’re not struggling towards our liberation you’re simply becoming a footstool for someone else’s empowerment.
meta, Ro + Ra'il, misogyny, discourse about entitlement over womens bodies
@FinalOverdrive @eris until people start actually working with trans women yeah
meta, Ro + Ra'il, misogyny, discourse about entitlement over womens bodies
@destroy @eris So feminism for women, albeit this time trans and cis alike. And this sisterhood is uncomplicated by questions of class, racialization, sexuality, imperialism, or even levels of education is that it? And I suppose we must be anti-porn on top of that? Yeah no thanks.
You're committing the same errors as the second wave. There's a reason why it died and gave way to the third wave. It is a museum piece, antiquated and obsolete. Leave it in the past where it belongs. It has be superseded by black feminism, transfeminism, socialist feminism, anarcha-feminism, queer feminism, and yes sex positive feminism. They have conserved what was valuable and discarded what wasn't. The struggle will be intersectional and interwoven with all other struggles or it will not be at all. Swept into the dustbin of history with the pet rock and mood rings. What you're trying to build died of it's own inherent failures: among which was transphobia and whorephobia. The only people who advance this kind of feminism with gusto is the trans exclusive radical feminist. You are thus the biggest pick me of all.
meta, Ro + Ra'il, misogyny, discourse about entitlement over womens bodies
@FinalOverdrive @eris You’re assuming a lot of things I never said just because I don’t believe that trans women shouldn’t work in groups that aren’t interested in their liberation. All I’m asking is that other people extend intersectionality to us for once.
meta, Ro + Ra'il, misogyny, discourse about entitlement over womens bodies
@destroy @eris Again, you cannot speak of a unified bloc called "trans women" anymore than you can speak of a unified, shared cis woman hood with common experiences.
The only thing that unites us, trans and cis, is oppression under patriarchy. That's all. And we are not even identically or equally oppressed by patriarchy. That is a very thin reed to build a sisterhood with.
I do apologize for making the presumptions I did in the last reply. It was uncalled for.
Your complaints about how trans women are treated? They are just. But you cannot solve them by prioritizing our struggle over every other struggle, any more than
our 70's cis predescessors could for theirs. We don't become stronger by separating from the larger fight. We become an ineffective middle class girls club forever swapping programming blåhaj memes and programming jokes.
meta, Ro + Ra'il, misogyny, discourse about entitlement over womens bodies
@FinalOverdrive @eris if that shared struggle is a thin reed that you can’t build a useful movement with then what the hell is supposed to be the binding agent between oppressed and oppressor sharing struggle like you want to build?
meta, Ro + Ra'il, misogyny, discourse about entitlement over womens bodies
@destroy @eris Oppressed and oppressor is a simple binary that simply does not reflect the world as it is out there. bell hooks herself stated that, being both black and a woman, her relationship to black men isn't and can never be a simple matter of oppressed and oppressor. The comrade and oppressor is embodied in the same figure against a larger more oppressive interwoven system that faces them both in distinct ways. Therefore it is not a question of struggling against black men as it struggling with them. Is there conflict? Sure. But the relationship is not that simple.
The only case where it might be that simple is solely within whiteness. And even there I suspect things are not that simple.
Likewise, a white trans woman is fully capable of oppressing a black trans woman. Poor trans women share nothing in common with a well off trans woman. The same intermingling of oppressor and oppressed occurs within the fortress you seek to build. The only difference is, cut off from the larger fight, it is impotent to achieve even its own goals.
meta, Ro + Ra'il, misogyny, discourse about entitlement over womens bodies
@destroy @eris So it's subordinate or be subordinated, is that it?