@eris Ra'il isn't a man to my limited knowledge. I apologize if I am wrong. I don't know and haven't inquired, but I think you should not cast the man net so wide here. As for Ro, he's not commenting on trans women, white or not. They're both commenting on you for dragging this whole vendetta for a year...which, need I remind you, started over an off color joke about how some white supremacists see Italians and Africans as basically the same, only you didn't do the best job conveying that part. You just baldly stated it without qualifiers to indicate sarcasm.

What you're discussing here is very real situation. There is legitimate grievance, a lot, about how trans women of any color are treated by trans men. This deserves to be discussed and taken seriously.

Your opposition's core issue, however, is a growing concern that white transfeminists are ironically repeating the same error commited by white cis radfems made that was among many things that proved to be their undoing: an unwillingness to tread carefully and mindfully at the intersection of race and sex. One cannot simply array trans men on one side and trans women on the other, anymore than the second wave radfems could do with cis men and cis women. It simply isn't merely a matter of misogyny, transmisogyny pure and simple.

I have largely stayed out of this conflict, though I have not been neutral and never claim to be. I want to be on your side here. I really do. But given the already hostile climate black fedi users from multiple countries of origin face in the fediverse, I cannot abide by any approach to a problem that makes this situation worse.

Especially a conflict that literally started because you didn't tell a joke well enough. Does this really seem like something to go on crusade for?

I know I'm kicking a damn hornets nest. But nothing breaks my heart more than when I see a big historical mistake being repeated.

Reviving second wave radical feminism wholesale, minus the transphobia that plagued it isn't sufficient. There was a whole lot else wrong with it besides. Otherwise whenceforth the third wave?

Think it over.

@FinalOverdrive @eris if you don’t believe men are the oppressing class over women you simply aren’t a feminist at all. Patriarchy is a real system.

@destroy @eris So I assume you judge third wave feminism as not feminism at all, given it attacked patriarchy without worrying about questions of who was the "oppressing class", even to the point of speaking of patriarchy as more a component of white supremacy.

@eris @FinalOverdrive when you speak of patriarchy as a component of white supremacy it erases the struggles of thousands of years in places like China. Subjugation of people under men has been the norm in many societies around the world long before white supremacy was invented.

@destroy @eris It does not erase it all, it simply focuses where our efforts should be directed in the here and now. It's not all women against all men. I suppose now you would call bell hooks, Angela Davis, and the Combahee statement as not feminism as well?

@FinalOverdrive @eris bell hooks considers black men her oppressors I don’t think you understand her writings

@destroy @eris By the same token, she did not exclude men from feminism. And her view of black men wasn't a simple one of oppressor or not.

@eris @FinalOverdrive She never subordinated the struggle of women to the struggle of men. None of the people you mentioned did. And similarly, I won’t subordinate the liberation of trans women to be secondary to anyone else’s liberation.

@destroy @eris It's not a question of subordination of ones own cause, it's about not subordibating anyone else's struggle for liberation to ours. The patriarchy is not some root oppression. There is no root oppression. And again, these thinkers never thought in terms of all men or all women. It means the forces of liberation must cooperate with one another as equals. That means give and take.

@eris @FinalOverdrive Yeah I’ll work with other people the moment they start treating trans women as equals. Haven’t seen it yet though

@destroy @eris So basically you pick up your toys, go home, and pout because things aren't perfect? You'll just subordinate everyone's struggles to ours and ours alone? As if all trans women, never mind all women period, were in the same boat?

All I see is a duplication of the errors of second wave thinking, minus the transphobia.

@eris @FinalOverdrive No one will advocate for trans women but ourselves. When you work in a struggle that doesn’t consider trans women as an equal priority you’re not struggling towards our liberation you’re simply becoming a footstool for someone else’s empowerment.