@exiliaex it came pretty naturaly to me. But it might just have been from general osmosis. I still havent read marx but i do understand that i am being stolen from.

@JesusKristensen marx's point is actually more that you *aren't* being stolen from (at least not in the general formulations most "left-wing" economists use, like, "they're stealing the value of your labor!")

his point is explicitly that workers are dispossessed, oftentimes violently, which forces them to sell themselves and that they become commodities. but that once they are in the position of commodity, they are subject to the same bourgeois laws, and thus, all of our labor-power really is bought and sold "at its value."

his point is that you *aren't* being stolen from, in terms of wages or "value" but that you *are* being stolen from in terms of having the ability to live a life with others for the purpose of the free development stolen from you.

@JesusKristensen oops that last paragraph is wonky; i meant to say:

his point is that you *aren't* being stolen from, in terms of wages or "value," that as long as we're willing to force people to become commodities through property rights and legal infrastructure, this will be the result... if we want to have a free society, in which we are no longer chained to processes controlling us, we have to change the way in which we produce, we can't just try to change the distribution of that production.

what's stolen from us is not our "value" but the endless possibilities of cooperation without it.

@exiliaex true, i know that. We are fucked over from cradle to grave in all possible ways. But its shorter and snappier to say that they are stealing from you. Your happines, your posibilities, your labour value, your political input, etc etc etc.