Socialist theory musings
@burnoutqueen largely because its going to someone other than who did the work.
Socialist theory musings
@burnoutqueen whatever instabilities it may have, a socialist market economy where there is total worker ownership and control of production, distribution, and finance would't be a society with surplus value problems.
Socialist theory musings
@FinalOverdrive the only way I could see the elimination of crises in a market-like economy is the elimination of profit and the selling things at the exact cost it took to make it, Lange-Style.
Socialist theory musings
@burnoutqueen I think prices would hover around cost in a worker owned market economy. Give or take. Would never be exact but close.
Socialist theory musings
@FinalOverdrive @burnoutqueen i'm sorry to butt in here, and feel free to tell me to leave y'all alone but - there's no such thing as "full value"
i highly recommend marx's critique of the gotha program to see why marxists don't talk about workers receiving the "full value of their labor"
in short: value arises through the equivocation of products. that's what a commodity is. a commodity is something "exchangeable" that serves some purpose, some use.
if you no longer have a capitalist class, i.e. if there is no one "taking" the surplus value above the workers you *still* have a society based on the exchangeability of both products *and* the labor to produce those products. in other words: you still have workers as commodities, just as in capitalist society.
let alone all of the different upkeep necessary for the production of commodities. the machines in a factory still need to be fixed, the disabled and elderly and children all still need care. you cannot get "the full value" while these things remain true.
Socialist theory musings
@FinalOverdrive @burnoutqueen i'm not saying you are. i don't really consider myself a marxist either. but they are one of the few groups who discourse about these concepts (surplus value) with a mind towards overcoming capitalist relations. it's a reasonable avenue to check, even if you don't agree.
Socialist theory musings
@exiliaex @burnoutqueen And I treat all those things as "I guess? But it would be workers taking care of things together so I don't see the implication. If people are working for themselves or with others, how are they a commodity? There is no wage labor or class of people who have nothing but their own labor."
Socialist theory musings
@FinalOverdrive @burnoutqueen workers taking care of each other under a system in which they still need to buy and sell things - in which their labor has a "value" that's how they are a commodity. there is no such thing as "full value of my labor" without making labor a commodity. or rather, i, personally, don't see how that could be the case, i'm willing to hear other thoughts on it. it sounds to me like it *is* wage labor, otherwise there's no "value"
Socialist theory musings
@exiliaex @burnoutqueen There is no wage labor without a capitalist to hire propertyless laborers. Otherwise you just have an agreed upon "take" if you work in a co-op or you keep full revenue if working for oneself. Wage labor is not the mere fact of getting money for labor. It is a relationship between one class to another, where one parasitizes on the other.
Socialist theory musings
@exiliaex @burnoutqueen or your "cut" of the revenue if a partner.
Socialist theory musings
How about this: abolish money. Abolish markets
Local communities could vote on what societal resources should be used on. The productive capacity and natural resources of a given town/city would be owned by the citizens of that town/city.
Use computers and printouts to store numerical measures of physical units, and utilize a constrained optimization procedure such as the simplex algorithm to determine how to use those resources on the ground.
Socialist theory musings
To coordinate the process of production over large areas, you could have representatives from each community meet together in a kind of federation.
Socialist theory musings
@burnoutqueen @exiliaex And if a community wants to do it that way, post rev? Be my guest.
Socialist theory musings
@burnoutqueen @exiliaex But my community of weirdoes will likely go in the opposite direction. If we require something from a community that doesn't use markets or money, then it will be by basis of "good for good, service for service".
Socialist theory musings
@burnoutqueen @exiliaex Unimpressed, will agree to disagree.
Socialist theory musings
@FinalOverdrive @burnoutqueen wll, i suppose this is where i fundamentally disagree. we don't have to continue this here, but, i think you're wrong. you don't keep full revenue for yourself. *and* the cost of your labor in the co-op is not equivalent to the value of what you produce.
but like i said, we don't have to continue this here, thanks for letting me butt in for a minute.
Socialist theory musings
@exiliaex @burnoutqueen Your input and challenge was appreciated.
Socialist theory musings
@exiliaex @FinalOverdrive the person I was talking to isn't a Marxist
Socialist theory musings
@exiliaex @burnoutqueen I'm not a marxist.