the center-marxist DSA group that centers around cosmonaut are the best example how orthodox marxism can become indistinguishable from fascism via figures like kautsky

you cant delegitimize all political activity that doesnt take the form of electoralism, delegitimize all violence that isnt from the state, advocate a regulation of the social body by direct control of the organs of the proletariat, and follow nationalists like Lasalle and Kautsky, and then be surprised when people notice that youre not exactly offering a picture of liberation

@exiliaex my eyes glazedd over reading this youre just like the marxists

@errante thats rude

@exiliaex no but like ylure jsing the political thoight ans language of the marxists its lame

@exiliaex like, marx n marxists define the notion behind the world proletariat, right? and that notion isnt particularly anarchistic, because its the opposite & its classist, but u still use it

@errante wait what? marx argues for the proletriat to abolish itself. its description as the proletariat is a descriptor, not a prescription

@exiliaex his descriptor is defined in opposite to the lumpen class and the bourgoise class

@errante its not in opposition to lumpen, thats not really accurate to his version

@exiliaex i thunk that defining your classes by sieving out vulnerable people is defining in opposition

@exiliaex by defining a proleyariat and a bad proletariat, you do the same thing as selling a cereal and a cereal without asbestos - the descriptor on the second redefines the first

@errante lmao no

@errante is there such a thing as a rotten fruit or vegetable? is there still purpose in categorizing apples together even if some apples are rotten? i think so. the proletariat isnt 'the good guys' its just a class descriptor.

@errante the lumpen aren't the bad guys, they just aren't, functionally, to capital-society, the same kind of position. as a class, their interests tend to culminate differently. i personally tend to lean towards the lumpen side of this, if we're using a marxist formulation, but i don't think a marxist formulation is the only useful one here (and plenty of marxists *don't* think lumpen are "counter-revolutionary, just so you know)

@exiliaex the fsct that they accept the lumpen as existin gin the firsy place is the problem

also the lumpen are absolutely the bad guys because anyone counter revolutionary is a bad guy to a marxist. thats why they throw the term at peoole they dislike

@errante but not all marxists define the lumpen as counter revolutionary.

@exiliaex thwy still define em as an underclass! they still define em seperately to some notion of prole where no such clear line can be drawn

@errante because their relation to production in relation to the capital and value valorization process is different!