the center-marxist DSA group that centers around cosmonaut are the best example how orthodox marxism can become indistinguishable from fascism via figures like kautsky

you cant delegitimize all political activity that doesnt take the form of electoralism, delegitimize all violence that isnt from the state, advocate a regulation of the social body by direct control of the organs of the proletariat, and follow nationalists like Lasalle and Kautsky, and then be surprised when people notice that youre not exactly offering a picture of liberation

@errante thats rude

@errante wait what? marx argues for the proletriat to abolish itself. its description as the proletariat is a descriptor, not a prescription

@errante its not in opposition to lumpen, thats not really accurate to his version

@errante lmao no

@errante is there such a thing as a rotten fruit or vegetable? is there still purpose in categorizing apples together even if some apples are rotten? i think so. the proletariat isnt 'the good guys' its just a class descriptor.

@errante the lumpen aren't the bad guys, they just aren't, functionally, to capital-society, the same kind of position. as a class, their interests tend to culminate differently. i personally tend to lean towards the lumpen side of this, if we're using a marxist formulation, but i don't think a marxist formulation is the only useful one here (and plenty of marxists *don't* think lumpen are "counter-revolutionary, just so you know)